BUBBA -VS-APE

[sometimeman]

Boys and Girls, when you read this, it should become apparent to you just what Ape and Liemore think about financing the operation of the government of Union County and what Bubba and the other intelligent folks think

THOMAS EDISON ON
GOVERNMENT CREATED
DEBT FREE MONEY

Prosperity, September 2000

In December 1921, the American industrialist Henry Ford and the inventor Thomas Edison visited the Muscle Shoals nitrate and water power projects near Florence, Alabama. They used the opportunity to articulate at length upon their alternative money theories, which were published in 2 reports which appeared in The New York Times on December 4, 1921 and December 6, 1921.[/b]

Objecting to the fact that the Government planned, as usual, to raise the money by issuing bonds which would be bought by the banking and non-banking sector -- which would then have to be paid back with money raised from taxes, and with interest added -- they proposed instead that the Government simply create the currency it required and spend it into society through this public project.

This is also the Prosperity proposal.

Thomas Edison made it plain in the following excerpt from The New York Times, December 6, 1921 issue ("Ford Sees Wealth In Muscle Shoals"). Here, the reporter is quoting Edison:

"That is to say, under the old way any time we wish to add to the national wealth we are compelled to add to the national debt.

"Now, that is what Henry Ford wants to prevent. He thinks it is stupid, and so do I, that for the loan of $30,000,000 of their own money the people of the United States should be compelled to pay $66,000,000 -- that is what it amounts to, with interest. People who will not turn a shovelful of dirt nor contribute a pound of material will collect more money from the United States than will the people who supply the material and do the work. That is the terrible thing about interest. In all our great bond issues the interest is always greater than the principal. All of the great public works cost more than twice the actual cost, on that account. Under the present system of doing business we simply add 120 to 150 per cent, to the stated cost.

"But here is the point: If our nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good. The difference between the bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money brokers collect twice the amount of the bond and an additional 20 per cent, whereas the currency pays nobody but those who directly contribute to Muscle Shoals in some useful way.

" ... if the Government issues currency, it provides itself with enough money to increase the national wealth at Muscles Shoals without disturbing the business of the rest of the country. And in doing this it increases its income without adding a penny to its debt.

"It is absurd to say that our country can issue $30,000,000 in bonds and not $30,000,000 in currency. Both are promises to pay; but one promise fattens the usurer, and the other helps the people. If the currency issued by the Government were no good, then the bonds issued would be no good either. It is a terrible situation when the Government, to increase the national wealth, must go into debt and submit to ruinous interest charges at the hands of men who control the fictitious values of gold.

"Look at it another way. If the Government issues bonds, the brokers will sell them. The bonds will be negotiable; they will be considered as gilt edged paper. Why? Because the government is behind them, but who is behind the Government? The people. Therefore it is the people who constitute the basis of Government credit. Why then cannot the people have the benefit of their own gilt-edged credit by receiving non-interest bearing currency on Muscle Shoals, instead of the bankers receiving the benefit of the people's credit in interest-bearing bonds?"


Please print out, photocopy and distribute these articles. Also copy and paste them to emails, and circulate widely, and please include all the essential contact information below. Thank you.

Essential Further Reading:
PROSPERITY: Freedom from Debt Slavery
is a 4-page quarterly Journal which campaigns for publicly-created debt-free money. PROSPERITY is edited and published by Alistair McConnachie and a 4-issue subscription is available for £10 payable to PROSPERITY at 268 Bath Street, Glasgow, Scotland, UK, G2 4JR. Tel: [phone]; Fax: [phone], Email: contactus AT ProsperityUK DOT com www.ProsperityUK.com All back-issues are still available. The 40-page Report, Clarifying our Money Reform Proposals, launched at the 2006 Bromsgrove Conference, is available for £10 payable to PROSPERITY and is essential reading for beginners.

The Grip of Death: A study of modern money, debt slavery and destructive economics by Michael Rowbotham, [Jon Carpenter Publishing, 1998] and Goodbye America! Globalisation, debt and the dollar empire by Michael Rowbotham, [Jon Carpenter Publishing, 2000] and Creating New Money: A monetary reform for the information age by Joseph Huber and James Robertson [New Economics Foundation, 2000] are all available from PROSPERITY.

[sometimeman]

My friends, you might also remember Mr. Henry Ford wrote and published a four volume set of books titled, "The International Jew"
Mr. Ford had a real depth of understanding found lacking among many supposedly learned men!

[bubbadebubba]

a good analogy Sometime- but folks like moonie and Ape don't like to be educated, it hurts their head. Try feeding them a rosy picture and a lot of bull****.

[sometimeman]

Some how I get the feeling ,they are at least in some areas, they are mentally incapacitated.

[manape]

Sometime and Bubba, the problem with property taxes is that property taxes will never be fair. What we need is property tax reform. What we need is a tax shift not a tax increase. We need a referendum to approve excessive spending which would preserve local control, enhances transparency and maintains the long-held belief in the principle of limited government. Justin wants to make property tax fair. The only fair tax is consumption tax, not property tax. Consumption tax is the only way to treat everyone equally. What Justin proposes is more of the same...without changing the system. I'm not knocking your boy, but doing the same thing old thing expecting different results is insane.

WWJD? Here is his website:

www.votemelick.com/Platform.htm and he says"

"A Fair Taxation Process

Everyone should be treated equally. Property values should be assessed at fair market prices and taxed accordingly. Property values should no longer be artificially inflated to increase tax revenue. "

In a commentary, "Missing From the Tax Debate: Spending", Kelly McCutchen writes:

A consumption tax, such as the sales tax, has many advantages over income and property taxes because it does not tax Georgians’ savings and investment. If the state imposes a sales tax on previously untaxed services, it would make the tax fairer and more economically neutral. That applies particularly if refundable tax credits are made available to low-income citizens to offset the regressive aspects of the sales tax.

The tricky question is how one distributes the new sales tax revenue. Under a broader sales tax, 60 percent of the new revenue will flow to the state and the remainder will flow to cities, counties and school districts that currently levy a local sales tax. State government’s intent with its 60 percent share is precisely what has raised concerns about loss of local control. By using the new revenue to reduce state income tax rates or increase the state’s share of education funding, the state eliminates nearly all of these concerns.

Taxpayers need reassurance, however, that the additional local revenue will be dedicated to rolling back tax rates instead of fueling higher spending. As in the famous Reagan adage, “Trust, but verify.” Residents should trust local elected officials to prioritize local spending, and should give them more flexibility. To that end, eliminate arbitrary state requirements that restrict sales taxes to capital projects and cap sales tax rates. In return, limit annual local spending increases to the growth in the local population and inflation. Local governments that wish to exceed this benchmark would seek permission from residents through majority vote in a local referendum. This referendum would be no different from a sales tax election, except the referendum must be held in conjunction with other regularly scheduled elections.

Flexibility in exchange for accountability gives every local community the opportunity to decide for itself if it wishes to eliminate property taxes. If governments prefer a mix of property tax and sales tax, taxpayers would have the reassurance that the process won’t lead to bigger government without citizens having a voice in it. School boards dissatisfied with education funding decisions from state government would be empowered with the independence to fund their own priorities through local decisions.

No longer will Georgians hear complaints of “stealth tax increases.” You can play smoke and mirrors with property tax assessments, but you can’t hide overall spending. It’s been shown numerous times that when local communities must approve a sales tax to finance large capital projects, the public vote leads to better buy-in for approved projects and stops poorly planned or low-priority projects. If Georgia has to increase state taxes, the sales tax is the lesser of evils. Broadening the tax base and reducing tax rates, whether property tax millage rates or income tax rates, is good tax policy.

Before that happens, however, the state must prove to taxpayers that this is a tax shift, not a tax increase. One simple requirement ensures that: a referendum to approve excessive spending. This process preserves local control, enhances transparency and maintains the long-held belief in the principle of limited government. When a debate over tax reform produces a broader, more flexible revenue base with lower rates, more transparency, and taxpayer support for large increases in spending, then all Georgians come out winners.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly McCutchen is executive vice president of the Georgia Public Policy Foundation, an independent think tank that proposes practical, market-oriented approaches to public policy to improve the lives of Georgians. Nothing written here is to be construed as necessarily reflecting the views of the Georgia Public Policy Foundation or as an attempt to aid or hinder the passage of any bill before the U.S. Congress or the Georgia Legislature.

© Georgia Public Policy Foundation (November 27, 2007). Permission to reprint in whole or in part is hereby granted, provided the author and his affiliations are cited.

[Justin Melick]

Manape my friend, I thought you were against consumption taxes. As you know, I support the fair tax and think a sales tax should replace both Federal Income tax and local property taxes. But on the local level, that will take an act of the State House and Senate.

In the mean time we can make property taxes as fair as possible.

[bubbadebubba]

Ape posted:
It is assumed you approve of what's in your post, otherwise you would not have posted it.

What we need is to get RID of any high taxing official!!

Local governments that wish to exceed this benchmark would seek permission from residents through majority vote in a local referendum.

Answer-You forget Ape, that right was taken away with the Corporation by a commisar you approve of and glorify.




Flexibility in exchange for accountability gives every local community the opportunity to decide for itself if it wishes to eliminate property taxes. If governments prefer a mix of property tax and sales tax, taxpayers would have the reassurance that the process won’t lead to bigger government without citizens having a voice in it. School boards dissatisfied with education funding decisions from state government would be empowered with the independence to fund their own priorities through local decisions.

Answer-So far our elected officials have shown they want our money any way they can get it, whether it's sales taxes or property taxes. They want it to waste as this is what they are doing with it. Some is being used for valid projects, but most is a waste. As for eliminating property taxes, this commisar is on record of being opposed to it. Our State Representive and Senator have been opposed to it. However, they have shown they want property taxes and sales taxes. A loser for property owners.



Before that happens, however, the state must prove to taxpayers that this is a tax shift, not a tax increase. One simple requirement ensures that: a referendum to approve excessive spending. This process preserves local control, enhances transparency and maintains the long-held belief in the principle of limited government.

Answer-The State has recognized that local government for a long time has layed the blame on the State for High property assessments when in actuality, it is local government that causes high assessments. The State's answer is too look into property tax relief because the Counties have failed to do so.

Any time the Lesgislature meets, the taxpayers lose and anywhere the voters are ignorant, such as Union County, there will be waste of money. Politicians love other people's money, that's why they are politicians, it's what they do.

[bubbadebubba]

FYI:

This is how much Union County property owners have their homes mortgaged for by our elected officials::

for the next 6 years:
$27 million splost by the School Board.
$31.5 million splost by the commisar.

$10-11 million a YEAR from property taxes X 6 years =$60-66 million by the School System. And that's assuming no property tax increase for the next 6 years.

$7 million a year by the commisar X 6 years =$42 million assuming no property tax increases.

Total=$160.5 -$166.5 million. divided by a 21,000 population = $7,857.00 for every man, woman, and child in the County over a 6 year period.

$7,857 Divided by 6 = $1309.00 a year for every man, woman, and child per year.

Now we know renter's don't pay property taxes, we know lower income spend less, we know the rich are not bothered by high taxes. So that leaves the middle and lower income to pay most of this tax. And the bigger the family, the more you pay.

YOU PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP!!

[sometimeman]

Justin, I appreciate your dedication to fairness.
Bubba, Thank you for you digging up and posting good factual information and hard numbers.

Ape, yours is pie in the sky that is beyond local control.
Justin can do what he proposes. Your man screwed it up and your wishful thinking is outside his area of responsibility and influence and there fore Bull Sh*t

[manape]

Justin, I have no problem with discussing issues. What people don't understand is we are all in this together. I don't enjoy writing big checks to the government. The idiots of blairsville.proboards104.com had rather fight than solve problems.

[manape]

This comes from the man who wanted to pay NO TAXES, "Ape, yours is pie in the sky that is beyond local control. "

APE: That's what they said before at the Boston tea party. If I am not mistaken, this is still a government by the people and for the people.

STM: Justin can do what he proposes.
APE: I don't know that. It's why I am asking.

STM: Your man screwed it up and your wishful thinking is outside his area of responsibility and influence and there fore Bull Sh*t
APE: Watch out STM. You don't want me to come over there and wash your mouth out with soap.

“No problem can be solved by the same consciousness
that created it. We must learn to see the world anew.”
—Albert Einstein

[manape]

Not all people like Lamar, but he gets the job done...I'm not sure anyone could have done any better. It seems Bubba agrees with Lord Acton.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton

As usual Bubba, your panties are in a wad...

Any time the Lesgislature meets, the taxpayers lose and anywhere the voters are ignorant, such as Union County, there will be waste of money. Politicians love other people's money, that's why they are politicians, it's what they do.

So, we vote them in, then we vote them out...there seems to be a never ending pattern here. Is that your solution? You must be a real joy to be around bubba.

Watch it Justin. If you were to get elected, your fan club won't like you after six months.

[sometimeman]

Ape, I'm so glad you recognize we're all in this together. I'm pleased you are interested in problen solving. This is an official invitation to you to join us.
The first step in problem solving is identifying the problem. We have identified Mr. Paris as the "problem" I think Mr. Paris actions indicate that he is the problem.
He acts as if he owns the court house.
He acts as if he owns the Board of elections.
He acts as if he can't tell one proposal to do county wide property reassessment from another.
He acts as if he can't operate Union County according to state law.
He acts as if a private LLC is necessary for him to operate the county.
He acts as if his character is defective.
He acts as if he is unworthy of the trust of "his" people.
Help us solve the problem, Ape Mr. Paris is the problem.

[manape]

Oh, I get it. If Justin is elected, problem solved. But hold it...when the pack of dogs turns on him, then he will be the problem.

Thanks sometimer, I feel moved to go eliminate some waste. Boy howdy...shoot a monkey. I'm going to sleep good tonight. Maybe if Justin is elected he can put all that tax money in the bank and the government can pay us for a change. Wouldn't that be a hoot? We could pay negative taxes.

[shortcircuit]

manape said:

Justin, I have no problem with discussing issues. What people don't understand is we are all in this together. I don't enjoy writing big checks to the government. The idiots of blairsville.proboards104.com had rather fight than solve problems.

I wanted to see the site where all the idiots fight but the link that you posted doesn't work.