AskTheWiseOldMan
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"Justice denied to one citizen is justice denied to society as whole"
Posts: 566
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Post by AskTheWiseOldMan on Jul 24, 2008 19:00:11 GMT -4
You might enjoy studying the research of biblical scholars. "Pauline Christianity" is a term used to refer to a branch of Early Christianity associated with the beliefs and doctrines espoused by Paul the Apostle through his writings, especially his epistle to the Romans. Most of orthodox Christianity - including modern day evangelicals, relies heavily on these teachings. They consider them to be amplifications and explanations of the teachings of Jesus - although there isn't any evidence to support this and much evidence to the contrary. Paul's writings are now believed by scholars to be teachings that are radically different from the original teachings of Jesus documented in the canonical gospels, early Acts and the rest of the New Testament, such as the Epistle of James. The term "pauline" is generally considered a pejorative by traditionalist Christians as it carries the assumption that Christianity as it is known is a corruption of the original teachings of Jesus. The Pauline distinctive is actually the thesis of Marcion of Sinope, the 2nd century theologian who was born 200 years after Christ. He asserted that Paul was the only apostle who had rightly understood the new message of salvation as delivered by Christ. However at the same time, Ebionites and Nazarenes (Jesus was a Nazerene) regarded Jesus as a political figure and rejected Paul for straying from the true teachings of Jesus and for misleading early sects with false claims of miraculous works. Pauline Christianity, as an expression, first came into use in the twentieth century among those scholars who proposed different strands of thought within Early Christianity, wherein Paul was a powerful influence. It has come into widespread use among non-Christian scholars and depends on the claim, advanced in different ages, that the form of the faith found in the writings of Paul is radically different from that found elsewhere in the New Testament, but also that his influence came to predominate because it was palatable to the Romans and Pagans. Reference is also made to the large number of non-canonical texts, some of which have been discovered during the last hundred years, and which show the many movements and strands of thought emanating from Jesus's life and teaching or which may be contemporary with them, most of which can be contrasted with Paul's thought. Of the more significant are Ebionism and Gnosticism. There is no universal agreement as to Gnosticism's relationship either to Christianity in general or the writings of Paul in particular. The expression is also used by modern Christian scholars, such as Ziesler and Mount, whose interest is in the recovery of Christian origins and the contribution made by Paul to Christian doctrine. Paul's supporters, as a distinct group, had an undue influence on the formation of the canon of scripture, and also that certain bishops, especially the Bishop of Rome, influenced the debates by which the dogmatic formulations known as "the Creeds" came to be produced, thus ensuring a Pauline interpretation of the gospel by political edict. The differences between the views of Paul and the church in Jerusalem are revealed in his letters, and also between the picture of Paul in the Acts of the Apostles and his own writings, such that the essential Jewish or Old Testament character of the faith is said to have been lost. As for the book of Revelation, even Protestant founder Martin Luther considered Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that " Christ is neither taught nor known in it" (see www.bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html) Luther also held a low view of Hebrews, James and Jude and referred to some as untrue or unapostolic.
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Post by shortcircuit on Jul 24, 2008 20:04:56 GMT -4
I think there will never be an end to "time", the Bible teaches that there will be a new heaven and a new earth and we will all live eternally in one of two places. I am a strong pre-millenial and I believe that a BIG change will happen in this world but nobody can say for sure when that change will happen. There are some mainstream preachers and religious leaders out there that have came up with dates, they need to read their Bible and see why their predictions are wrong.
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AskTheWiseOldMan
Trail Blazer
"Justice denied to one citizen is justice denied to society as whole"
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Post by AskTheWiseOldMan on Jul 24, 2008 20:10:36 GMT -4
Its interesting that in the opinions of some scholars, the references of "anti-Christ" and "false prophets" is actually a reference to Paul and the "beast" is the Pauline Church.
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Post by shortcircuit on Jul 24, 2008 20:24:43 GMT -4
I hear lots of references to the anti christ, according to my beliefs the true nature of the antichrist won't be revealed until he/she/it has complete control over the world. And I ain't gonna be here when that happens! Lots of references to the mark of the beast also, some say that "www" means "666" in some sort of computer code. Also that bar codes are the mark because of some sort of code in them that has three 6's in it. Thanks for starting this thread Taylor, I really enjoy these kind of discussions.
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AskTheWiseOldMan
Trail Blazer
"Justice denied to one citizen is justice denied to society as whole"
Posts: 566
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Post by AskTheWiseOldMan on Jul 24, 2008 21:46:46 GMT -4
FWIW, at Mercer (a Southern Baptist University) we were taught that it was a contemporary reference to one of the Caesars - probably Nero. In the original Greek it is: ωδέ η σοφία εστίν; ο έχων νουν ψηφισάτω τον αριθμόν του θηρίου; αριθμός γαρ ανθρώπου εστί; και ο αριθμός αυτού χξϛ΄. We were taught that "666" refers to Roman Emperor Nero (whose name, written in Aramaic, was valued at 666, using the Hebrew numerology of gematria, a manner of speaking against the emperor without the Roman authorities knowing). This was the common code used as Rome was falling to reference then-contemporary figures about whom it would have been politically dangerous to criticize openly. Then in 2005, researchers at Oxford University using advanced imaging techniques were able to read previously illegible portions of the earliest known record of the Book of Revelation, from the Oxyrhynchus site, Papyrus 115 or "P115", dating to the third century (200-300 AD). They learned that the Number of the Beast was mistranslated all along and is actually 616 (chi, iota, stigma), rather than the 666 (chi, xi, stigma) as previously translated. The next earliest text, the "Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus" also has it written out in in full: hexakosiai deka hex (literally "six hundred sixteen"). please see: www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htmSome scholars contend that the number 666 is a code for the Roman Emperor Nero and that 616 is a code for the Roman Emperor Caligula. The King James Vn translates it as: Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Literally Six hundred threescore and six can mean 36006, 39600 and 666. Modern research cited above suggests - if not proves - that none of these is an accurate translation.
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Post by sometimeman on Jul 25, 2008 15:27:20 GMT -4
The Sanctuary Christians by and large are ignorant of the biblical sanctuary service and its meaning. Once the symbolism of the sanctuary services is grasped, a deeper more meaningful understanding of the scriptures dawns upon us and we SEE Christ and his love for us EVERY WHERE, all throughout the scriptures . Yes, even in the book of Revelations. The books of Leviticus found in the Old Testament and the book of Hebrews found in the New Testament helps us to understand the symbolism, the relevancy and the meaning of the rituals. Lets us review some scriptures to begin: “Thy way O Lord is in the Sanctuary”. “The life is in the blood” “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission” “A minister of the true sanctuary which the Lord pitched and not man”. As the great multitude of Hebrews wandered in the desert, God said to Moses, “Let them build me a Sanctuary, that I may dwell among them” From the New Testament regarding this time we read of a pillar of cloud and a pillar of fire which followed the wandering multitude and of water from a rock. If the New Testament writer knew what he was talking about, he identified this as Christ. So we see Christ is everywhere all throughout the scriptures even from Genesis to Revelation! Now the Sanctuary was constructed according to plans God gave Moses. Each phase, each item, each fixture, each part of the ritual has great meaning! All, each and every part, reveals Christ and his love for us. The Sanctuary was constructed of a tent, having inner and outer compartments. The outer part was twice as deep as it was wide and was separated from the inner part by a veil or curtain which made the inner part as wide as it was deep and high, a perfect cube. The inner part was called the Holy of Holies or the Most Holy Place. It was behind the veil and contained the Ark of the Covenant in which was the Law or Ten Commandments. God’s presence was indicated by a shining light above the Ark. Now the scriptures say, “Whosoever sinneth transgresseth also the Law, for Sin is the Transgression of the Law” The scriptures also say, “the wages of sin is death” and also, “now almost all things are purged by blood and without the shedding of blood there is no remission”. So. The law said, “thou shall not commit adultery” but, the husband was away and his neighbor went in and had sex with his wife! Clear case of sin cut and dried! Now then you see the neighbor has guilty feelings and seeks forgiveness and a clean conscience. He goes and gets a lamb, an innocent creature, no fangs to bite, no horns to hook and no claws scratch and tare. A creature completely unable to do anything or commit any act worthy of being put to death. Completely innocent! An innocent lamb. The adulterer brings the lamb to the Sanctuary’s outer courtyard. He is met by the officiating priest. He places his hands on the creature’s head. He confesses his sin. He has committed adultery with his neighbor’s wife. He has transgressed the law. He has sinned. This act, this ritual, the placing of the hands, the confessing of the sin over the head of an innocent being symbolically transferred the guilt to the creature. Who is now guilty? Why it’s the Lamb! And what is the wages of sin? Why it’s death! So, what happens? The lamb’s throat is slit and the blood is caught in a cup. Why? Because the scriptures say, “The life is in the blood” This blood, this guilty life, is taken by the priest into the Sanctuary. The Priest goes. carrying the cup with the blood inside, down, closer and closer. He brings the cup, the blood right up before the veil and its sprinkled before the veil. The law had been broken. Sin had been committed. The wages of sin is death. And, payment has been made! Now if you were an ignorant sinner, not realizing the Lamb symbolized your self you would think adultery only cost you a lamb. Today we say "cheap grace" never realizing it cost Christ the blood from his veins and so we crucify him afresh. Now Wise Old Man when you read about, in the Book of Revelation, no one being found worthy to open the scroll and then they looked about and found a bloody lamb and the cry went up worthy, worthy is the lamb! You can go back and tell those educated men at mercer that you've found Christ in the book of Revelation!! Even so come Lord!
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Post by sometimeman on Jul 25, 2008 15:38:48 GMT -4
See here now, get yourself on over here to this here web site where the Scoffeld bible on steroids can be found and don't let your shirt tail touch you till you done read the Leviticus and the Hebrews and done clicked them embedded hyper links and read them. www.bibleexplained.com/
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AskTheWiseOldMan
Trail Blazer
"Justice denied to one citizen is justice denied to society as whole"
Posts: 566
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Post by AskTheWiseOldMan on Jul 25, 2008 16:43:29 GMT -4
Please translate into plain English. You seem to be saying that Christians absolve their own guilt by slaughtering innocents. I agree with that part and so does History.
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Post by shortcircuit on Jul 25, 2008 17:28:30 GMT -4
I should have known better, it's impossible to have a good conversation about religion without somebody coming in and trying to bash others beliefs. I'm done with this thread, y'all have fun!
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Post by sometimeman on Jul 25, 2008 19:41:19 GMT -4
Naw W.O.M. Christians don't slaughter. The crusaders had the wrong spirit in them. In the scriptures, The type met the anti type at the crucification. The sacrificial system ceased. The veil in the Temple was "rent" from top to bottom.
Today the crazies, the Zionist, the John Hagee types, intend on rebuilding the Temple, slaughtering a red heifer and starting up the sacrificial system again thus making a mockery of the sacrifice of Christ
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Post by sometimeman on Jul 25, 2008 21:04:03 GMT -4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:22
And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. Exodus 25:8
A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. Hebrews 8:2
The earthly sanctuary and temple were copies of what is in heaven. If you are blindfolded and taken to a city and the blindfold removed, you look around and see this tall spire monument and recognize the Washington Monument you know you are in Washington DC.
If you are blindfolded and taken somewhere, blindfold removed and you see the sanctuary/temple as described in the scriptures you know you are in heaven. Christ is there ministering on behalf of his people. The closing hymn is about to be sung. Get ready. He is coming!
Hebrews Chapter 8... Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
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soaks
Greenhorn
Posts: 92
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Post by soaks on Jul 25, 2008 21:12:47 GMT -4
The law said, “thou shall not commit adultery” but, the husband was away and his neighbor went in and had sex with his wife! Clear case of sin cut and dried! Now then you see the neighbor has guilty feelings and seeks forgiveness and a clean conscience. He goes and gets a lamb, an innocent creature, no fangs to bite, no horns to hook and no claws scratch and tare. A creature completely unable to do anything or commit any act worthy of being put to death. Completely innocent! An innocent lamb. The adulterer brings the lamb to the Sanctuary’s outer courtyard. He is met by the officiating priest. He places his hands on the creature’s head. He confesses his sin. He has committed adultery with his neighbor’s wife. He has transgressed the law. He has sinned. This act, this ritual, the placing of the hands, the confessing of the sin over the head of an innocent being symbolically transferred the guilt to the creature. Who is now guilty? Why it’s the Lamb! And what is the wages of sin? Why it’s death! So, what happens? The lamb’s throat is slit and the blood is caught in a cup. Why? Because the scriptures say, “The life is in the blood” This blood, this guilty life, is taken by the priest into the Sanctuary. The Priest goes. carrying the cup with the blood inside, down, closer and closer. He brings the cup, the blood right up before the veil and its sprinkled before the veil. The law had been broken. Why only one lamb (could kids or calves also be used)? Seems like there were two involved in this little tango. And I've got to wonder if it was really the transgressors guilt, or possibly pressure on the priest by the offended party for this public display of contrition - that or I'm going to kill them both. Also, it seems to me that the early church would have an interest in legitamizing itself by tying this ritual of sin transference (which was really an act of public confession/humiliation and monetary penalty) to Christ's sacrifice - one of the major charges against Christ was that he was forgiving sins, something that the priests had a vested interest in maintaining (who got the dead meat?). Something else that I've always wondered about is this emphasis on the need for an external mechanism to forgive sin, the adultress was simply told to go and sin no more. Seems to me that this notion of salvation is an easier sell then the real core of Christ's teaching - the Beatitudes, the hypocricy of public piety, the corruption of the church, turning of the cheek, care for the less fortunate... The God I know loves us, knows life isn't easy, and understands our weaknesses. Frankly, I'm more inclined to believe in Christ's ministry because he believed in it thoroughly enough to die for it. You probably wouldn't want me in your bible study.
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Post by sometimeman on Jul 25, 2008 21:22:04 GMT -4
No you'd be welcome soaks. Adultery was a poor choice. I should have chose stealing.
The God I serve knew it took two to tango and when framed by do gooders on this very point of adultery, wrote in the sand. Some say he wrote their names and the times they were guilty of "the very act" I like him. He was the best role model.
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Post by sometimeman on Jul 25, 2008 21:28:05 GMT -4
Soaks wrote, "Why only one lamb (could kids or calves also be used?" Yes, But, it had to be innocent and alive with blood in its veins. Doves were used by people too poor to afford a lamb. The doves head was pulled off and blood dripped out. The scriptures say, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission" The scriptures teach, "sin and die" Today's preachers preach bloodless sermons. They diminish the sacrifice of Christ. They teach, "sin and live" Please, Please click this web site and read Leviticus and Hebrews. www.bibleexplained.com/What I am posting is biblical. I am not making it up.
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AskTheWiseOldMan
Trail Blazer
"Justice denied to one citizen is justice denied to society as whole"
Posts: 566
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Post by AskTheWiseOldMan on Jul 25, 2008 22:35:25 GMT -4
I should have known better, it's impossible to have a good conversation about religion without somebody coming in and trying to bash others beliefs. I'm done with this thread, y'all have fun! Maybe its because so few agree but most will fight you to prove the other guy is lying. There's nothing wrong with this discussion. Logically, given enough time it must end in agreement. I just want to know what the Universe is expanding INTO... and where do black holes send matter, plasma and light ... and when whatever makes us conscious, responsive and thoughtful leaves our bodies it must go someplace. I'm pretty sure wherever that is, God lives there.
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